Saturday, July 8, 2017

Favites billii

A new type of coral I discovered, here is a link to the fossilforum wheere the work is being done....b

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/57287-odd-coral-type-from-tampa/

pix:





luxefaire

Odd Coral Type From Tampa

    36 posts in this topic

    Hi this is an unclassified type from tha tampa formation, oligomiocene or thats what the other types from same area are, any help greatly appreciated, b
    post-4011-0-79800800-1441211095_thumb.jpg
    post-4011-0-25494700-1441211106_thumb.jpg
    Interesting. This specimen really does not look at all like any of the scleractinian corals I have collected or seen from south Florida. There is a resemblance to a Paleozoic tabulate coral, but I think that is just superficial, perhaps an artefact of the way the specimen has been silicified. Anyway, a pdf of Weisbord 1973, "New and Little-known Corals from the Tampa Formation of Florida", is available here. You might compare your specimen to Aveopora tampae (pg 37-38 and plate 6 fig 406, plate 7 figs 4-5 in the pdf).
    Don
    goatinformationist, Bone Daddy and JohnJ finds this informative
    Wouldn't it be nice to have genetic material to figure out what the corals have really been up to all this time. I think they are all half breeds.
      On 9/3/2015 at 7:18 AM, Plax said:
    what happened to the septa? (or septae)
    The lack of their preservation may make any ID a guess at best.

    "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant
    “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley
    >Paleontology is an evolving science.
    >May your wonders never cease!
    I wonder if it might actually be a hymenopteran (wasp) nest? Some of them (such as yellowjackets) nest in the ground and could possibly be subject to mineralization under certain circumstances I suppose. That could explain the resemblance to "honeycomb coral".
    Don

    "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant
    “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley
    >Paleontology is an evolving science.
    >May your wonders never cease!
    There do appear to be some vestiges of septa, and I agree that brood chambers would be more regular and only one bee length deep. They could have collapsed onto each other, but it seems like there would more gaps and distortion if that were the case.
      On 9/3/2015 at 7:18 AM, Plax said:
    what happened to the septa? (or septae)
    Got me thinking so I had to check. Septa is plural. Septum is the singular.
    Thank you very much for the replies, it was retrieved with a lot of other material from a submerged vein at Ballast Point so even though the wasp nest idea is neat, I dont think it is that....a lot of the corals here are very well preserved, and the alveopora types in the aforementioned pdf are not these, I have many examples of Alveopora tampa and they are distinctly different. This has never been identified by any of the people studying this reef of th aTampa Formation.....thanks very much again, future replies welcomed....b.
    Edited by luxefaire

    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen
    No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go.
    " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me
    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes
    "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks


    "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant
    “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley
    >Paleontology is an evolving science.
    >May your wonders never cease!
    Thank you for your replies to this query. I have added some pictures to one of my blogs which relate to bulletin 56 for anyone interested. There are some more examples of this unknown type, which appears tabulate in some ways, but may be Favites or Favistina. My query here was part of a multifaceted investigation I ndertook when I finally realized I was going to have to spend some time to identify this type. I have found some pictures which indicate to me Favistina or Favites and there are a number of those types already recorded on the reef at Tampa. This un-named coral type is fairly common there, and manifests as true silica pseudomorph regularly, sometimes of very fine quality.

    The link: treasurehuntingwithbillgallagher.blogspot.com.

    Back to the initial request for information here, concerning the type of coral above, I have also come across several types by rereading bulletin 56 which were named but not really, tentatively, and there are no examples pictured of these types, in particular: endopachys tampae, orbicella (Montastrea?) cellulosa, anthemiphyllia ?, antillocyathus. All inputs welcome concerning these coral types.....b
    PS I CAN AND DO CUT THESE TYPES REGULARLY AND I WILL GET A PICTURE UP OF A CROSS SECTION NEXT TIME I AM ONLINE...THANK YOU AGAIN....B
    Clearly, you are no neophyte, and your quest is fired by more than idle curiosity!
    Speaking for myself, I hope to learn from your efforts :)

    "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant
    “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley
    >Paleontology is an evolving science.
    >May your wonders never cease!
    Favistina is an Ordovician colonial rugosan coral with well developed primary and secondary septa in which the primaries reach to (or close to) the center of the corallite, but do not twist or fuse to form a columnellar structure (that would make it a Cyathophylloides). Favites is a "brain coral", very different from your mystery specimens. Did you mean Favosites? That is a lower/middle Paleozoic tabulate coral. There is a superficial similarity in that both Favosites and your coral look like colonies of hexagonal corallites. However Favosites has a distinct structure to the corallite wall, including pores that penetrate the wall and allow communication between corallites. I don't know if you can see that level of detail in your specimens, as it seems to me they are recrystallized so that such detail would be obscured if it was ever present. At any rate it seems unlikely to me that tabulate corals would have disappeared from the fossil record in the late Paleozoic, reappear as a "Lazarus taxa" in the Oligocene/Miocene, and then go extinct for good (as they have never been seen in modern oceans).
    You might want to check some of the references on Neogene corals from islands in the Caribbean. Apparently many of the corals present in the Golden Gate member of the Tamiami formation are affiliated with corals from Puerto Rico and elsewhere in the Caribbean, and California. Some genera are (supposedly) living in the present-day South Pacific, though they are now extinct on the Atlantic side of the Central American isthmus.
    Anyway, your specimens are certainly intriguing!
    Don
    You, goatinformationist and Auspex finds this informative
    try the paleontology section of the University of Florida site: paleontology, fossils, invertebrates,gallery

    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"_ Carl Sagen
    No trees were killed in this posting......however, many innocent electrons were diverted from where they originally intended to go.
    " I think, therefore I collect fossils." _ Me
    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."__S. Holmes
    "can't we all just get along?" Jack Nicholson from Mars Attacks

    Thank you for the replies, and especially Don, I am newbie as far as corals go, just good at collecting them, but I am catching up and I appreciate the help....here are 2 pix of the coral sliced, I may have to slice across the polyps, looking at it now, there do not seem to be any septa visible in this coral. None of the4 specimens I have collected possess anything like septa....is it possibly a sponge?
    post-4011-0-19642900-1441993061_thumb.jpg
    post-4011-0-98302300-1441993069_thumb.jpg

    "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant
    “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley
    >Paleontology is an evolving science.
    >May your wonders never cease!
    Hi Don (FossilDAWG) thanks for the information on this coral it is a good lead, and to all who replied, if I discover anything I will post here in the future....best wishes and happy holidays....Bill
    No septa, no tabulae, no pores on the surface, no spicules, just irregular polygons with aleatoric distribution, some of them having a round knob in the center. I think, it looks close to a septarian, or better a counter septarian structure as we have seen before in A. Seilacher's examples, giving a geological, not a biological origin.
     
    Innocentx finds this informative

    It must be exist a right-handed neutrino.
    My Library
      On 9/10/2015 at 0:04 PM, luxefaire said:
    treasurehuntingwithbillgallagher.blogspot.com
    I like the photos on your blog and I think you're onto something here, though I certainly don't know what it is.

    A day without gnat straining is a day that don't stink.
    Thank you to all who have replied, a lot of the information has been helpful, and all of it has been interesting.  I have many examples of this...thing....it is a common type, as far as that goes at Ballast Point.  In 2014 I dug a pocket there that was almost entirely this type, and that happens a lot out there, the pockets sometimes have predominant species within, like that section of the reef was where something got started and then reproduced over long periods of time before dying and fossilizing.... here are some additional pictures for those of you more well versed in corals than I am....maybe they show more detail of useful type, I hope they are not redundant....as to the tamiami formation I have collected some of that stuff south of tampa, it is too recent to be considered I think, although Dons suggestions led me to a site called http://geokogud.info/ and I have found some interesting things there that may be indicative.  I think the effort here is worth the time, if it is a different type of coral not classified it is somewhat important, no?  It would be cool to figure it out here.
    DSC00014.JPG
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    Innocentx finds this informative

    A day without gnat straining is a day that don't stink.
     Well I have been busy and there is light at the end of the tunnel. By taking what I have learned here, along with things from bulletin56 and googs, I have had a little success in maybe matching this coral with a relevant picture.
     
    I found one piece of this stuff with somewhat intact characteristics, (pix #1 and #2) and then found a picture of coral which resembled that pretty well, but on an architectural page illustrating hexagonal and polygonal forms for building (http://design.epfl.ch/piraeus/2-day-to-day/3-process/cs-coral-i).  Tracing that picture brought me to a blog by a cool dude who likes taking pictures underwater in his tropical retirement paradise in Vietnam (http://www.messersmith.name/wordpress/2009/01/02/ocean-patterns/) if I am interpreting that correctly.  Better pix: coral_img_0864.jpg
     
    Anyway, nobody has a species name though the architecurals are calling it star coral.   Maybe a coral specuialist here can help.  So this appears to be a deteriorated form of something (Montastrea, Favosites, Orbicella?).  It is pretty common on the Ballast Point reef of the Tampa Formation, which I think is shallow water stuff, versus deepwater stuff.  In the last two pictures the reader can see a phenomena common to this type of specimen also, these little polygonal or hexagonal discus type thingies are "Stacked" in the tubes of the coral, and can be removed a lot of the time, unless the specimen is extremely well silicified.
    Again, thanks for looking, any help greatly appreciated.
     
     
    2.JPG
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    4b.JPG
    Innocentx finds this informative
  • luxefaire

    Odd Coral Type From Tampa

    36 posts in this topic


    A day without gnat straining is a day that don't stink.
      On 12/23/2016 at 5:51 PM, Innocentx said:
    A lot of similarities. The evidence continues to build.
     
    http://www.lakeneosho.org/Paleolist/87/index.html
    Are you aware that tabulate corals went extinct at the end of the Paleozoic?  That there is a 250 million year gap between the extinction of the true tabulates and the fossil reef at Tampa?  It is highly unlikely that tabulate corals such as Favosites persisted undetected anywhere in the world for 250 million years, popped up in a coral reef in Florida 4 or 5 million years ago, and then went extinct for good (none have been found in modern oceans).  It is much more likely that the resemblance is superficial, an artifact of the mode of preservation of a totally different coral.
     
    Don
    Kane, Innocentx and JohnJ finds this informative
    i remember that coming up on the front page don, thanks to both for keeping up....heres a dose of dummy for you don, is the reason the corals are called tabulate because they have these tabs in the tubes?....there is a lot of interesting info on that page from innocentx.  there is an advantage sometimes being as ignorant as me, but with a strong will to learn, because its hard to be embarrassed under those circumstances, and can lead to thoughts otherwise unconsidered.  I remember when I took on learning byzantine coinage, i was like : no way.  but it happened with persistence and so i tackled 4th crusade coins of the holy land, the ones they melted down church statues to make, real gnarly....I got them too eventually, and lots more now, so the coral will happen in direct proportion to the time i can spend with it.  i would like to identify this species though because i can then sell the specimens, you see, something banal but useful.
     
    my best chance at id'ing this species is the pix added earlier, of the intact portion of the fossil.  I will continue to work on this and thanks again....
     
    I am researching this type of coral now, as the piece i have with preserved exterior closely resembles these.....

    Faviidae

     
    300px-Closed_Brain_Coral_copy.jpg
     
    Favites sp.

    Taxonavigation

    Superregnum: Eukaryota
    Regnum: Animalia
    Phylum: Cnidaria
    Classis: Anthozoa
    Subclassis: Hexacorallia
    Ordo: Scleractinia
    Familia: Faviidae
     
    btw i added more pix to the blog of coral types, two years after and i just now getting to the information aspect of it....b
    Innocentx finds this informative
    Hey Bill, I probably missed something somewhere in these threads but has Roger Portell at UF seen this stuff and offered any ideas/help? 
     
    Regards, Chris 
    hi plantguy, i dont know if he has or not, i would be interested to speak with him..... i am tracing down a type that fits very well the preserved piece of this material and it is here:   http://www.coralsoftheworld.org/species_factsheets/species_factsheet_summary/3033/
     
    favites billii...joke just a joke....but favites for sure
     
    any other information greatly appreciated, i wonder if the favites like this from the reef there at ballast point is actually another type?  i guess that is my next fun, close comparisons, i am learning a lot, thanks for replies....b
    I sent him some of your photos. Will keep you posted...
     
    Regards, Chris 
    As I was writing that if you really wanted an id contact Roger, Chris replied.
     
    The best website I have found for Cenozoic coral identification is NMITA's Zooxanthellate site NMITA LINK however as you can see by the id keys for individual species it is a highly specialized field.  At best you might be able to id to genus as it is heavily dominated by Plio-Pleistocene species.
     
    Mike
    Plantguy and Innocentx finds this informative

    "A problem solved is a problem caused"--Karl Pilkington
    "I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." -- Mark Twain
    Yep, as Mike says contact Roger as hes not seen anything like that from that locale and hes not able to place/ID them based on the 5 photos I sent. closeup/cross section, etc. He would need to see them in hand. Hopefully you all can arrange something. Here's his email portell@flmnh.ufl.edu
     
    If you are able get an ID please let us know--even if you arent! Thanks for the post---interesting! 
     
    Regards, Chris 
    thank you Plantguy i will write roger now....i will keep this running and should be able to get an id....i have 3 or 4 other types that seem questionable as far as their cataloguing goes, so once this one is done....take care and thanks again....b
      On 1/3/2017 at 2:50 PM, luxefaire said:
    is the reason the corals are called tabulate because they have these tabs in the tubes?
    They make plates (called tabulae) that divide their tubes into chambers as they grow.
    image014.jpg
    You and Innocentx finds this informative
    Thanks trisk, these fossils from Tampa certainly have something like a tabulate form within, but thats apparently not possible, and has occurred elsewhere geologically versus biologically...i am happy I was able to get the one specimen with the intact polyps, as pictured earlier, and I am including more pictures here with highlights of the actual corals that allowed me to make a tentative attribution of Favites (billii....hee hee)
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    Innocentx finds this informative
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